Posts From The Desert - MOVIEVERSE
Oct. 27th, 2002 11:53 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
dexfarkinA little subsection of a group of notions that have recently been noted on my earlier post about the CBFFAs. It's a minor little thought that has occured to me, and seeing as my little exile is all about exploring those thoughts, I am going to run with it.
I wonder why the idea exists that X-Men Movieverse is a ghetto of the comic book fanfiction community. Some of the major early work in that community was done by people who were big on the comicfic side of the fence. There is a fair amount of cross-over involved. Yet, it seems that a large number of exclusively movieverse writers feel as if they're advancing against a storm of hatred; modern martyrs of fanfiction.
It puzzles me because I didn't know that any of us comic book fanfiction writers were supposed to hate Movieverse fic until someone told me that I did.
When Movieverse first came out, the overall opinion of the community was that the movie was damn good. I took forty-five people to see it during DexCon. (Side note: Funniest movie comments ever provided in a packed theatre by Speedy Paul. "Ah just kissed him and he was in a coma for eight months." "Cause she's just that good!" and "Senator Kelly is dead." "On the plus side, if anyone's thirsty...") However, the opinion on reading fic about it was lukewarm at best. Some, like Dyce and Kielle looked forward to it. Others, like myself, really didn't care.
It was a good movie. It was about the best adaption of the X-Men to the big screen you could hope for, while still retaining their personalities. But they were still X-Men Lite. Two hours verses forty years? I'll take my comic canon.
That seemed to be the end of the issue. The Movieverse grew (exponentially) and drew in some comic writers. It also started with some people who crossed over later. However, in general, it seemed to be it's own community, with it's own stars and issues and ideas.
The Rogue/Logan debate was the first real spill-over that I noted. The idea of their's as a sexual relationship was treated by most comic writers with the same mindset that they approached Logan/Kitty and Logan/Jubilee relationships. Some were huge fans of it. That distaste seemed to rankle the L/R people (shippers, guild, community? I'm not sure the word) which touched off the first cross-community argument. Even that was considered by most comic writers, including myself, as an off-handed little argument in a corner. Obviously, it was not considered in the same light by the L/R writers.
Then came the CBFFAs. I'm not going to get into the logistics, suffice to say that I made the significant error in not barring them or throwing the doors wide open right off the bat. My vague 'gentlemen's agreement' idea led to a lot of ill feeling. This was compounded by a very unfortunate element of the Movieverse community who felt they had the right to demand their own categories, and threaten the integrity of the awards if not appeased. (The Best Serious-Logan/Rogue, Best Humourous-Logan/Rogue and my favourite, Best Erotic-Logan/Rogue were the main demands) Talk about tarring the entire community with the same brush. Completely devalued the opinions of the Movieverse in one stroke. The sheer volume and viciousness of the attacks left me raw to the far more reasonable voices of Naomi and Minisinoo.
Even after all that, I don't hate the Movieverse. However, it still doesn't interest me all that much. Again, X-Men Lite. I realise that there are many fine writers involved and producing likely some exceptional work. Still, I'm not very interested in it. Same reason I don't read much Batman fanfiction. Don't care. Characters don't interest me.
My sojourn into Movieverse is because the exploration of Doctor Jean Grey fascinates me, and I get to do horrible things to Mister Sinister. Even writing it, I'm still not all that interested in the characters. They feel less real to me than thier comic canon versions.
Which brings me to the question: Is this why Movieverse fanfic writers feel ghettozied? (Or if they don't, is this why Victoria P feels ghettozied?) Is it because they get disinterest about their work, while a new comic fanfiction story receives interest?
I'm rather curious on this, mostly because after reading the past posts on the X-Men Movieverse list, most of the struggles seem to be between seperate bodies of Movieverse writers arguing about interpretation, or the ever present 'Logan/Rogue' question. A wash of comic fanfic writer's posting negative protrayels of Movieverse wasn't amoungst that.
Perhaps there's an idea that Movieverse should be interchangable with comicverse, on an archival level, which has not happened to a large extent. Or perhaps that disinterest is taken as a personal rejection as a writer. Or is it that even though you're writing about a movie property of a comic book, you feel the characters and concepts should be interchangable?
Anyhow, feel free to elighten me. If you're a Movieverse writer and feel like you've been relegated to a second class citizen by comic book fanfiction, explain why that is. This is not a trial or a place for justifications. I'm honestly curious why the feeling exists, and in what ways you feel it's manifested on a regular basis. Enlighten me.
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no subject
Date: 2002-10-27 11:18 pm (UTC)People like what they like. And there are enough movieverse writers out there even now (and considering I've only written two short stories in the fandom all year, I don't even count myself anymore) to make a community *regardless* of what the comic writers think of them. Considering what muggles tend to think of fanfiction as a whole, I'm surprised people haven't developed a thicker skin.
no subject
Date: 2002-10-27 11:34 pm (UTC)Relax, madam. The assertation ha been made some some writers, such as Victoria P, that comic fanfiction treats Movieverse like an unwanted growth; a "Red-headed stepchild of fanfiction". I just want to know if people do feel that way, and if so, why?
Based on your response, this is not something you feel or have noticed. (If I'm ncorrect, pleseme know). I personally don't really notice Movieverse much, and I'd always assumed that they'd done pretty much the same with us. As for readers, I'd assumed they'd each found their own interests.
As for a comunity of it's own, again, I had assumed it was, and didn't care what the comic fic community thought of them (which is to say that I don't think we did think of them much,good or bad.) However, a lot of comments have been bandied around that there is a negative image. If you've never noticed that, I'd appreciate hearing that.
Re: Oh, you *knew* I'd reply to this one.... (part the first)
Date: 2002-10-28 01:07 am (UTC)I'd call that looking for an insult, personally. It's the classic slippery-slope fallacy in arguing. By saying that if A occurs, then it must equal B which must equal C. Let's take a closer look. Does the 90 minutes of the X-Men movie have the same depth as the 40 years of the comics?
No.
Therefore, the protrayels of the X-Men in the movie will likely not touch on the depth of characterization in the comics. That seems to be a fairly safe second step. So, it can be considered that the movie versions of the comics property are going to focus on the surface elements first, and have to build their internal dynamics at a far more rapid pace, likely not to the same depth as the comics have.
There is not a single value judgement in that entire argument. It's saying that the movie versions of the X-Men are not as indepth, fleshed out and complex as the comic versions. It doesn't say that one is bad and another is good. To turn around and pull that sort of blanket assumption is, I'd say, an unfair evaluation of the comic fanfiction community.
I recall my post on 'shipper' fic, and how Victoria P concluded that what I was really trying to say was "Movieverse writes should get serious and start writing more comic fic." even though there was nothing in the post to suggest that, and that it was posted on my Livejournal, which is watched mostly by comic book fanfiction writers. Really awful place to post a challange to the movie community, I'd say.
Perhaps we need to stop interpreting and actually looking to what people say. In terms of messages boards, I did not see any attacks on the C-Fan boards, nor the archive MBs. Now, were those messageboards off X-Fan and numourous fan sites, or actually archive sites?
I can image that if I posted to RACMX about the X-Men movie, I'd likely get a blistering response. But RACMX is not the fanfic community, despite numourous spillovers. Was all of this generated via fansites as opposed to across the widebands of the real writing community? To be honest, if it was over OTL or X-Fiction, I missed it. The C-FAN MB's were humming with Movieverse posts in the early days, and I don't remember a wide movement to condemn them either.
I think my point is that we need to get past what we think people are saying, and look at what they are saying. My reason for not reading Moviefic is the same reason as many people have for not reading Vertigo fic; not interested. When did we make 'not interested' a value judgement?
So, I will pose a question. Was there a time when mainstream comic fanfiction attacked Moviefic? As you say, Where I've personally run into most of it ranges from X-Fan to message boards, to my own journal. Where is it part of the wider consciousness of comic fanfiction?
Otherwise, it's scattered attacks that have become insituition, and that bothers me. Frankly, regarding the post in question, I hardly think StormFreak speaks for comic fanfiction in general, as the fires of her last encounter die down.
So, perhaps this is what's needed. We need to crowbar ourselves off our respective crosses and start looking at things without the blood in our eyes. Stop looking for the things to be offended about, to exclude ourselves, and look at what includes us. X-Fiction and OTL have been nothing but supportive to the vast majority of Movieverse fics that have been posted on them. Movieverse has been supportive of the comicverse writers who have dabbled and crossed over. Let's stop looking at what divides us, and start looking into what brings us together. Sure, I'm not going to start reading your movie fic any more than you're going to start reading my Hellblazer work. However, as communities, we can stop trying to create issues between the groups because of that fact.
Re:
Date: 2002-10-28 01:23 am (UTC)I think it might have something to do with the fact that movieverse writers are more interested in comic stories than the other way around. And I think that's natural, really. For us, any interpretation, including comics, is valid. For you, not so much.
Quick question
Date: 2002-10-28 06:16 am (UTC)This is something that I don't understand.
I've been on OTL for quite some time, and I've never understood this belief that its unwelcomeing, elitist, or any of the various labels that people ascribe to it.
Is there some reputation that I don't know about or some incident that happened in the history of OTL that caused people to think that the entire list is made up of people who are terribly rude or unfriendly?
Re: Oh, you *knew* I'd reply to this one.... (part the first)
Date: 2002-10-28 06:29 am (UTC)Normally, I don't have much interest in X-Men, either canon or Movieverse, though I thought the movie was great. However. I did get started on your "Sum of Zero" and read the entire thing through because the quality of work was good. It was a readable story, with plot, characterization, and action...and 'shipper fic tends to be thin on the first and third of these.
Similarly, I tried out Min's Heyoka Book 1 and kept reading through the whole thing, because she wrote the story so well. Again, plot, characterization, and action. If it's supposed to be 'shipper fic, I couldn't tell.
Since I write almost exclusively non-X-Men stuff, I have to rely usually on my ability to make the characters knowable and interesting to newbies, and work hard enough on keeping the quality of the writing high enough to attract readers. You may not know about the Shadow, but if you like my other stuff, I'm gambling that you'll give it a go.
You may not give a damn about a particular character. But if the story about him or her is written well enough, I think you'll be pleasantly surprised when you get around to it. So much for that.
Re: Oh, you *knew* I'd reply to this one.... (part the second)
Date: 2002-10-28 06:37 am (UTC)Not really, considering having Victoria P. in the other thread claiming comic-verse folks don't show interest in movieverse and yet hearing that only six of seventy-odd movie-verse authors who voted didn't bother with the comic-side at all rather irritated me. So if that's the claim of offense movieverse folks have, I would think they'd try to set a good example rather than "Do as we say, not as we do." =)
But how on earth am I supposed to take that? "[movieverse] is so bad" and "no self-respecting writer." Obviously, I'm not self-respecting, never mind that I'm actually published. (And yeah, it burns me enough to be just that arrogant.)
Er . . . I have to say, as someone that doesn't read it often, what I read outside the CBFFAs, even recommended, wasn't that good. I understand the movieverse gives you more freedom of characterisation, but the majority of movieverse that I've read did not convince me as a reader of a relationship. They've been poorly constructed and the motivations of characters were quite shallow and didn't make much sense. I'm afraid I do call that bad writing. And apparently the stuff that wasn't recommended is declared by even movieverse authors as worse than what I read.
I would also point you towards the recent Subreality RRs discussions. Does it make Subreality the bastard child, because even the Subrealizans have admitted that most of the RRs were terrible? Not really.
It's "everything I've read is bad, or at least most of it, and so I don't bother any more because I'm quite sure anything else will be bad, too. And oh, you're a movieverse writer? Well, don't take it personally." Sorry, I take it personally.
I don't like black licorice. Every time I've tried it, no matter what brand, I still don't really like the taste. Is it unfair to other black licorice brands to just assume theirs is as bad as everyone else's? I don't like Mazdas. I think their engines are shitty. Even though they've since made many cars after the ones I've driven or looked at. Is it fair to shun all Mazda cars because the ones I've seen are crappy and make me think I don't want to buy a Mazda?
You're kind of arguing against human nature. If we do something repeatedly and we don't like it, we're going to stop doing it, unless someone really really REALLY thinks that if we do it their way we'll somehow enjoy it.
I realize this doesn't help your taking offense to it, but it's a perfectly natural reaction and blaming a group of people for 'learning from experience' seems a little on the ridiculous side. =) I realize the entire point is to be considered outside of the 'Mazda' brand for your own fiction on its own merit, and I'm not talking about the majority of your fiction (as I haven't read all your movieverse fic) when I say this, but Movieverse is a subgenre, and appears to be proud of that. A few authors trying to step out of that label are going to have a very difficult time.
And the more movieverse authors think they're the ugly stepchild of fiction the wider that gulf is going to get. I think Dex is right when he says he doesn't think very often about movieverse, and I think that general apathy is much more prevalent on the comicverse side than the movieverse side, since several of the authors are claiming they are actively bitter. Apathy is easy enough to remedy by making something more interesting - a deluge of good fic, for instance. Bitterness is not. I'm curious as to what you feel would make you less 'bitter' or 'offended' in light of your post.
Could you suggest something that could be done to make you and the movieverse authors that you know feel less offended and bitter?
Re: Oh, you *knew* I'd reply to this one.... (part the second)
Date: 2002-10-28 08:09 am (UTC)I had a post eaten, but it was probably sadly outdated by this point anyway....
I will repeat a few things.
One is that in my opinion, while "This is all horrible, even the stories I haven't read" is unfair, "There may be good/enjoyable authors and stories in this lot, but I'm not looking for them anymore!" isn't always terribly unreasonable. Maybe not completely fair, but not an unreasonable decision either. The latter does, of course, present the prospect of missing out on some good stories.... It also lays one open to being later beaten about the head with recommendations from a more adventurous or persistent friend. This may be the goal in some cases.
Regarding the comment about Rogue and Logan.... I'm not saying that it didn't insult movieverse L/R writers. I don't think it applied to movieverse as a whole, however, and I think there's a legitimate reason comicverse Rogue/Logan writers might want to avoid movieverse.
You're familiar with the comics, so you know the differences between Rogue's respective backgrounds and the resulting dynamics with Logan. I don't know whether you're familiar with the arguments among comic fans and particularly comicverse fanficcers about Logan's taking teenaged girls under his wing. Arguments about... let's see... fans who think the relationship is or may eventually be romantic, fans who think that's appalling and it's a fairly healthy surrogate-father-daughter experience for all involved, fans who think they're good partners either way, and whether Logan's canon depiction should be interpreted as involving pedophilia or coming dangerously close to it. (I think I'm leaving something out. *frowns* I can't' remember what it is, though.)
I can very easily imagine someone who is interested in the relationship (romantic or otherwise, but especially if they're interested in potential for romance) between Rogue and Wolverine in the comics, who has seen these arguments (whatever their own opinion!) and been extremely glad their own favorite relationship-of-interest is not involved, going to the movie and then -- again, whatever their personal interpretation of the movie interactions -- vowing never to go anywhere near movieverse fanfiction. Not because they think it would be uniformly or even disproportionately horrible, but because they can predict or even see both the fanfic and the debates rising up all over again, this time with their own favorites.
Re: Quick question
Date: 2002-10-28 08:13 am (UTC)Point 3 still befuddles me. Why on earth would OTL Ban movieverse fic? (For that matter, what where would anyone have gotten that idea. There was movieverse fic being posted to OTL from about 4 days after the movie came out.)
I've heard the the opinion that OTL is snobbish, elitist, harsh, or otherwise unfriendly before - from the Xfiction list, from a few messageboards I lurk on. I -still- don't understand it.
Anyone else who isn't on OTL want to speak up about this? I'm curious.
Re: Quick question
Date: 2002-10-28 08:33 am (UTC)Cliquishness doesn't bother me. I've been in fandom a long time, and graduated from high school even longer ago.
I was just under the (apparently mistaken) impression that OTL was comics-only.
Not that it was unwelcoming/mean/bitchy, just that movieverse was not in the rules and therefore not allowed. No value judgements.
I'm not a model for blindly following rules, but I also know better than to post fic to lists that I'm told don't allow it (or a particular genre of it).
I never followed up on it because I was doing fine with XMMFF, the old WaR, WRB, X-fiction, and the two multi-fandom lists I'm on. I didn't see a need to add another list.
Re: Quick question
Date: 2002-10-28 08:38 am (UTC)While OTL is comics-heavy, its not comics-only. Anything that is derived from a comic (X-men movieverse, Smallville, the new Birds of Prey television show, Spidey movieverse, X-men cartoonverse.) is allowed. There was a nice long debate about it a while back, and while the other way around (Shows that became comics, such as the Buffy comic), comics that became shows are a go.
(The FAQ. I think - http://outsidetl.tripod.com/otlfaq.html#join - its A FAQ At least.)
Re: Oh, you *knew* I'd reply to this one.... (part the second)
Date: 2002-10-28 08:40 am (UTC)I believe the operative quote is from Robin McKinley's The Hero and the Crown, and forgive my paraphrasing as I'm both at work and in the position of not having reread the book in a few months: "Of course I'm letting my experience affect my judgment. That's what experience is for."
I've enjoyed what little movieverse fic I've read, back when Kielle was still actively updating the archive on CFAN, but as I've only been very marginally a part of the comicverse community for some time I'm not sure how much my opinion pertains to the discussion at hand. I can say that using the #subcafe regulars as a population sample (which may or may not be representative, and probably isn't) the general attitude toward movieverse fic does seem to be apathetic rather than derogatory; the subject barely ever comes up, to my recollection. So I haven't encountered the ghettoization, except perhaps by omission--but then, in #subcafe, comicverse fic tends to fall under the same category.
Again, though, I hardly have my finger on the pulse of the community.
no subject
Date: 2002-10-28 08:46 am (UTC)Oh yeah, there's no lack of martyrs or masters of passive-aggressive behavior in fandom. I prefer not to use those tactics, and if I'm coming across that way, that's not my intention at all.
Dex asked for opinions and I gave mine, along with my impressions.
However, being labeled a shitty writer or a pedophile based on nothing more than one's chosen pairing becomes wearing after a while.
And yes, it has happened to me, and to others, and I don't think either is applicable to me (or to the others).
I think it might have something to do with the fact that movieverse writers are more interested in comic stories than the other way around. And I think that's natural, really. For us, any interpretation, including comics, is valid. For you, not so much.
That's true, but I also think that the overwhelming amount of X-canon simply baffles many movieverse writers and really, unless one gets into the comics, fic about Dazzler or Marrow isn't going to be of interest to most movieverse fans. Nor are the more action-based, less-romance type of stories, because, as trite as it sounds, if I wanted that, I'd read the comics.
Strangely, the freedom from thirty years of canon afforded me by the X-Men movie has not carried over into my Smallville writing, and I can't seem to shake the shadow of Superman as iconic figure, and rewrite Smallville's future to feature a happy ending for Clark and Lex, though the romantic in me would like to.
Re: Oh, you *knew* I'd reply to this one.... (part the first)
Date: 2002-10-28 08:55 am (UTC)Didn't I explain why I thought that? Huh. I thought I had.
An awful lot of the time, it seems that people (random, generic people in fandom) equate movieverse with shipper fic, shipper fic with Logan/Rogue, and Logan/Rogue with crapfic.
Min's mentioned this many times, and as a non-L/R writer, she's really got no axe to grind, so she can be considered perhaps a less biased observer than I. But hey, at least I wear my biases openly. *g*
When you see it over and over, you start to think that people actually think that way, so when you see a post that says "We need less shipper fic and more action-oriented/political thriller/noromo fic," if you're me, one decodes that as: movieverse=shipper=L/R=crap while comicverse=noromo=action/deep thoughts=good.
Luckily, you're not me.
Yes. It's my interpretation and you say it's faulty and I believe you. But it's almost a pavlovian response two years into XMM fandom.
Does that make sense?
Re: Quick question
Date: 2002-10-28 09:01 am (UTC)Okay.
Good to know.
I doubt I'll sign up, but it's nice to know I *could* if I wanted to. *g*
Re: Oh, you *knew* I'd reply to this one.... (part the second)
Date: 2002-10-28 09:11 am (UTC)I can't speak for other movieverse folks. I voted for (almost) all the categories that were X-related. If I'd read one of the stories before awards season, I went and I read the others before voting.
The only categories I didn't vote in were non-X related, because well, I don't read any Batman or Authority or whatever fanfic. Sandman, otoh... There isn't much Sandman fanfic out there, which is probably a good thing, and a whole different LJ entry.
My claim of bitterness is based, again, on the conflation of movieverse fiction with bad fiction.
It's simply not so that all movieverse fic sucks, and when people say it does, that sets my back up, because I know it's not true. I know I don't suck, nor does Min, nor Die, nor Jenn etc.
Does that make sense?
Re: Oh, you *knew* I'd reply to this one.... (part the second)
Date: 2002-10-28 09:19 am (UTC)And that, in a nutshell, is the attitude that Min and I are complaining about, though she's doing a less emotional and more level-headed job of it than I am.
You're familiar with the comics, so you know the differences between Rogue's respective backgrounds and the resulting dynamics with Logan. I don't know whether you're familiar with the arguments among comic fans and particularly comicverse fanficcers about Logan's taking teenaged girls under his wing.
See, this I can understand. As a veteran of newsgroups and to use a BUffy example, I went through the Buffy/Angel, Buffy/Riley, Buffy/Spike discussions and flamewars. I don't need to go through 'em again now that Buffy/Spike and Cordy/Angel are canon.
However, I will say that most movie L/R fans didn't *know* that these were old arguments (though I at least should have realized that they'd be old hat to some, because what else is the internet for except to argue things like this into the ground?), and you know, indifference is fine, because I'm indifferent to a fair amount of fanfic in all of the fandoms I'm involved in. It's the flat-out, "Ew! Gross! You pedophile! Logan would NEVER!" bits that annoy me. 'Cause you know, you hit that 100th birthday and everybody is a kid to you.
But that's neither here nor there.
I hope that these discussions at least clarify *my* complaints/views of the fandom (both movie- and comic) without offending anyone else.
Re: Oh, you *knew* I'd reply to this one.... (part the second)
Date: 2002-10-28 09:50 am (UTC)However, I will say that most movie L/R fans didn't *know* that these were old arguments (though I at least should have realized that they'd be old hat to some, because what else is the internet for except to argue things like this into the ground?), and you know, indifference is fine, because I'm indifferent to a fair amount of fanfic in all of the fandoms I'm involved in.
I know most wouldn't have known. That's actually one of the major considerations in my whole hypothetical explanation, actually -- "They don't know; they haven't seen all these arguments -- but it's a very similar fictional situation in some respects and I bet they'll do it all over again!" The arguments I've seen look to be of similar construction and a similar set of perspectives, really. I'm not saying it's unreasonable (it may have been inevitable, I don't know) for it all to come up again, just that some people might have seen it coming and promptly run screaming the other way.
Not, mind you, that I think others of the same people who've been through the old arguments are necessarily unwilling to jump in and have them all again. ;)
It's the flat-out, "Ew! Gross! You pedophile! Logan would NEVER!" bits that annoy me. 'Cause you know, you hit that 100th birthday and everybody is a kid to you.
*chuckles* Well, I personally prefer that any romantic or sexual attraction be kept either one-sided (Rogue having a crush isn't implausible or disturbing to me) or restrained on Logan's part until Marie grows up a bit more. Until she's legally and emotionally and functionally an adult by the standards of her surrounding culture, if you will, and personally ready even if still less experienced. But I certainly agree that Logan getting involved with younger women than himself is very nearly his only option -- there are a few women in comicverse who are significantly closer to his age and I think a few older (at least one, but she may be dead and at any rate was... er... not a good candidate); in movieverse the closest you're likely to get is Mystique, and that's only if you assume she's older than Jean, which may very well not be the case in movieverse. I couldn't judge Mystique's age too well, but I might guess her younger there.
I'd say a certain level of personal and social maturity is needed on the woman's part, however, especially considering Logan can't be the easiest person to share a life with. That doesn't preclude her having known him and perhaps been taken care of by him when she was a kid or a teenager, at least not as I see it.
I will note, in hopes of giving a bit more perspective on my viewpoint here, that I have a 5000-year-old character in a sort-of-nascent relationship with an 18-year-old in one of my stories. Now, it's a rather odd situation -- it's Alicia's Shadowlands, so boundaries between times and timelines are breaking down -- and the parties in question actually grew up together, it's just that she got yanked out of her timeline when the world broke. The experience gap is inordinate. She's just barely an adult by modern standards, but that's actually an incidental result of the point in the timeline from which she was removed for plot reasons. By her own, she's been one for a few years -- was married, did the work of an adult woman, etc.
I think I am babbling. I shall stop now.
Something I've been wondering...
Date: 2002-10-28 09:57 am (UTC)Also, to me - correct me if I'm wrong, please do :) - one of the marks of excellent movieverse writing would be, or should be - just my opinion here! :) - broadening and deepening the characterization presented in the movie to present better-rounded characters. I mean, I liked the movie characters, but there's a limited amount the scriptwriters could do with the time they had. On the other hand, in the comicverse - I feel a little more secure talking about that side of things :) - one of the standards by which you're measured is your characterization as compared to canon characterization. Are the characters recognizable, or are they strangers wearing the name of the canon character? You're coloring within the lines, so to speak, and although you're obviously trying (or may be trying, depending on what your priorities are in the fic), just like the movieverse writer, to explore depths to the character that may not get covered in the source material, you always have that X number of years of canon to consider.
I guess what I'm saying is that I wonder just how much of a role these differing 'value systems' play in whatever gulf there is between movieverse and comicverse. It would affect readers - those who like the influence of canon, those who prefer to read fics where the writer was a little freer to roam in terms of character - as well as writers... and now I'm rambling. :)
As for my own view of movieverse... I haven't read a whole lot. Most of what I read, I read in the first six months... and a bunch more just recently, thanks to some recs from Min. What I've read, I've generally liked... sometimes a lot. (Geez, I so owe feedback to a number of people now, too... :) I don't particularly like the pairing of Logan/Rogue, but that doesn't mean I haven't appreciated some of the excellent L/R stories I've read recently. I just have too much comics background to ever really buy Logan/any young woman he's taken under his wing, I guess. But that's entirely separate from the high level of skill I've seen in the handful of L/R writers I've read. :)
I suppose, in the end, I don't read that much movieverse because there's no Cable... although I have been toying with the idea of a story introducing a movie-Cable almost since the movie came out.... ;)
Re: Oh, you *knew* I'd reply to this one.... (part the second)
Date: 2002-10-28 10:03 am (UTC)It's definitely the, "You all suck, even though I don't read your stuff" thing, not the "I don't care either way" thing that bothers me most.
Not, mind you, that I think others of the same people who've been through the old arguments are necessarily unwilling to jump in and have them all again.
*g* Hey, I'm willing to jump all over Xander's Lie in Buffydom, and I was there for the original argument. And I can't even tell you how many iterations of the Mahoney Shoot I went through in Homicide before finally jumping ship.
Well, I personally prefer that any romantic or sexual attraction be kept either one-sided (Rogue having a crush isn't implausible or disturbing to me) or restrained on Logan's part until Marie grows up a bit more. Until she's legally and emotionally and functionally an adult by the standards of her surrounding culture, if you will, and personally ready even if still less experienced. But I certainly agree that Logan getting involved with younger women than himself is very nearly his only option
*nods*
Most movieverse writers, myself included, age her up or *deal* with the idea of a young girl crushing on an older man (and the response of those around them) who may or may not, depending, be interested.
That's one reason why I get annoyed sometimes. Yes, there are stories where people leave Rogue a teenager, but most of the time, she's aged up, and yet there's still a vocal contingent of "Logan would *never...*" And well, maybe in the comics, he never did, even after Kitty or Jubilee was old enough (is Jubilee old enough?), but that doesn't mean that if you're a decent writer with a good handle on his character that you couldn't create a situation where he *would*. With all its attendant brooding and growling and giving up the one he loves in the name of honor/nobility etc. *G* All of which *are* things comics Logan would do, and very possibly movie Logan as well.
and the parties in question actually grew up together, it's just that she got yanked out of her timeline when the world broke. The experience gap is inordinate. She's just barely an adult by modern standards, but that's actually an incidental result of the point in the timeline from which she was removed for plot reasons. By her own, she's been one for a few years -- was married, did the work of an adult woman, etc.
Well, sure.
I've read some good Narnia fic lately about how the kids dealt with being kids again after being adult kings and queens, and going through adolescence again etc.
I'm just against blanket condemnations, especially of things I like.
Re: Something I've been wondering...
Date: 2002-10-28 10:15 am (UTC)Exactly.
That's exactly all I'm trying to say.
You don't like L/R, or *whatever* ship, I hear ya. I've been very vocal about my own pairing dislikes.
It's when that dislike is translated into "all fic of ABC type sucks. How do I know? 'Cause I read one D/E type story and *it* sucked, and therefore it must *all* suck because not only do I hate that pairing, it was badly written."
This is the part where I usually invoke Sturgeon's Law. *g*
I'm still working on a post about the whole thing, and I can say from my own experience, that writing Smallville has been less easy for me, because I *can't* seem to rid myself of as much Superman canon, even in the broadest terms, as I'd like. I'd love to posit a happy ending for Clark and Lex, or even Clark and Chloe or Chloe and Lex, but I know that Clark becomes Superman, Lex becomes his archenemy, and Lois Lane is both Clark's and Superman's love interest. And that's so iconic that I find it hard to work around.
Whereas in X-canon, the writers themselves have done so many AUs and new takes and can't be bothered to keep track of canon, that I can take what I like (Carol Danvers or Mariko or Beast - and while I don't read the comics myself, I do check the FAQ at er, the x-men newsgroup [racmx?] and pick the brains of people who *do* read the comics), drop it into movieverse and keep going with the movieverse, because what is movieverse but an offical, canonical AU?
At least, that's how I look at it.
Does that make sense?
Re: Oh, you *knew* I'd reply to this one.... (part the first)
Date: 2002-10-28 10:19 am (UTC)Re: Oh, you *knew* I'd reply to this one.... (part the first)
Date: 2002-10-28 10:45 am (UTC)I'm sure it does, but I was responding to the posts by Dex and Alara about how comics fandom is one of the few not overrun with pairing fic to the detriment of all else, and how they'd like to keep that balance.
That's what leads to the comicfic=noromo thing. I suppose I could have been more precise, but I'm talkign in broad strokes here as I avoid doing any actual work today at work.
I'm not into XM moviefic so I don't know how valid your "Pavlovian response" is. But if there wasn't a lot of it, would such a response even arise? I dunno.
Hmm... could you clarify?
My Pavlovian response is to the attitude toward movievfic, not moviefic itself (though there are some names that have me itching for the delete key whenever I see them, yes).
If you mean, would the response arise if the attitude was not prevalent, then no, I don't think it would.
If you mean, would the response (to the attitude) arise if moviefic weren't a presence, I'm not sure how to answer.
I mean, yeah, a lot of moviefic is crap. So is a lot of *any* fiction, including published stuff. So I'm not quite sure what you're asking.
Re: Something I've been wondering...
Date: 2002-10-28 11:09 am (UTC)See, that I find really interesting... :) So maybe it's got a lot to do with the type of canon, as well. I mean, Superman stuff is so iconic... I imagine it's really hard to try and look at anything related, even Smallville, without being influenced on that. On the other hand, X-canon - though it's definitely got its share of archetypes/icons - is so.. tangled, for lack of a better word, that maybe its archetypal impact is minimized? Huh... now I'm thinking that maybe movieverse would probably let you have easier access to those archetypes, without the accumulated baggage of thirty years or so... is that part of the attraction? :)
It's when that dislike is translated into "all fic of ABC type sucks. How do I know? 'Cause I read one D/E type story and *it* sucked, and therefore it must *all* suck because not only do I hate that pairing, it was badly written."
This is strangely reminding me of the whole Remy/Rogue thing... I came in kind of at the tail end of its pinnacle, back in 1997. It was sort of the 'thing' to mock the genre as a whole, just because so much of it was pretty bad. I shamefacedly admit that I mocked, upon occasion... but I stopped! :) Once I got a little less callow, fic-wise, and started to realize that, while there was a lot of bad stuff, there was also quite a bit of good stuff, and a surprisingly amount of really exceptional stuff.
With Remy/Rogue, admittedly, you didn't have the added wrinkle you have with Logan, of him having made a habit of taking young women under his wing as a sort of mentor-figure. That's a complicating factor in terms of the pairing's reception in the wider fandom, but I still wonder if maybe L/R's popularity (which I'm assuming, from what I've heard of movieverse :) isn't part of the problem. It's very much the fashion to knock the most popular pairing/characters just on principle, because they are popular, and Thus Cannot Be Good. Well, obviously there are other things that sometimes go into a reaction like that - I can speak from personal experience, there :) - but you probably see what I mean.... :)
Re: Oh, you *knew* I'd reply to this one.... (part the second)
Date: 2002-10-28 11:13 am (UTC)I believe the current estimate for Jubilee's canonical age is "Heaven only knows because we sure don't." ;) I enjoyed more of GenX fanfic than I did the comics (this is "more of what I read," not "more of what was out there"), but I understand there seems to have been some uncertainty there. Perhaps it's been pinned down since. I liked her as Wolvie's sidekick. I liked her in Song's End, darn it! *end pointless muttering for now*
I think some people can't see the guardian/mentor/parent-figure relationship changing far enough either in Logan's eyes to permit attraction or in the girl's eyes (whichever one she is) to make it possible to act on attraction without taking advantage. I imagine others are disturbed by the idea of perceiving the potential for even an eventual romantic relationship at the points we've actually seen so far. I think I've seen still others say that the idea of Logan getting involved with anyone is disgusting because he's so much older, which I always thought was a bit silly.
I think I might prefer the friendship-stories with Logan in most cases, but that's strictly a matter of taste.
The Narnia fic does sound very good. I might have to look for that one of these days.