dexfarkin

A little subsection of a group of notions that have recently been noted on my earlier post about the CBFFAs. It's a minor little thought that has occured to me, and seeing as my little exile is all about exploring those thoughts, I am going to run with it.

I wonder why the idea exists that X-Men Movieverse is a ghetto of the comic book fanfiction community. Some of the major early work in that community was done by people who were big on the comicfic side of the fence. There is a fair amount of cross-over involved. Yet, it seems that a large number of exclusively movieverse writers feel as if they're advancing against a storm of hatred; modern martyrs of fanfiction.

It puzzles me because I didn't know that any of us comic book fanfiction writers were supposed to hate Movieverse fic until someone told me that I did.

When Movieverse first came out, the overall opinion of the community was that the movie was damn good. I took forty-five people to see it during DexCon. (Side note: Funniest movie comments ever provided in a packed theatre by Speedy Paul. "Ah just kissed him and he was in a coma for eight months." "Cause she's just that good!" and "Senator Kelly is dead." "On the plus side, if anyone's thirsty...") However, the opinion on reading fic about it was lukewarm at best. Some, like Dyce and Kielle looked forward to it. Others, like myself, really didn't care.

It was a good movie. It was about the best adaption of the X-Men to the big screen you could hope for, while still retaining their personalities. But they were still X-Men Lite. Two hours verses forty years? I'll take my comic canon.

That seemed to be the end of the issue. The Movieverse grew (exponentially) and drew in some comic writers. It also started with some people who crossed over later. However, in general, it seemed to be it's own community, with it's own stars and issues and ideas.

The Rogue/Logan debate was the first real spill-over that I noted. The idea of their's as a sexual relationship was treated by most comic writers with the same mindset that they approached Logan/Kitty and Logan/Jubilee relationships. Some were huge fans of it. That distaste seemed to rankle the L/R people (shippers, guild, community? I'm not sure the word) which touched off the first cross-community argument. Even that was considered by most comic writers, including myself, as an off-handed little argument in a corner. Obviously, it was not considered in the same light by the L/R writers.

Then came the CBFFAs. I'm not going to get into the logistics, suffice to say that I made the significant error in not barring them or throwing the doors wide open right off the bat. My vague 'gentlemen's agreement' idea led to a lot of ill feeling. This was compounded by a very unfortunate element of the Movieverse community who felt they had the right to demand their own categories, and threaten the integrity of the awards if not appeased. (The Best Serious-Logan/Rogue, Best Humourous-Logan/Rogue and my favourite, Best Erotic-Logan/Rogue were the main demands) Talk about tarring the entire community with the same brush. Completely devalued the opinions of the Movieverse in one stroke. The sheer volume and viciousness of the attacks left me raw to the far more reasonable voices of Naomi and Minisinoo.

Even after all that, I don't hate the Movieverse. However, it still doesn't interest me all that much. Again, X-Men Lite. I realise that there are many fine writers involved and producing likely some exceptional work. Still, I'm not very interested in it. Same reason I don't read much Batman fanfiction. Don't care. Characters don't interest me.

My sojourn into Movieverse is because the exploration of Doctor Jean Grey fascinates me, and I get to do horrible things to Mister Sinister. Even writing it, I'm still not all that interested in the characters. They feel less real to me than thier comic canon versions.

Which brings me to the question: Is this why Movieverse fanfic writers feel ghettozied? (Or if they don't, is this why Victoria P feels ghettozied?) Is it because they get disinterest about their work, while a new comic fanfiction story receives interest?

I'm rather curious on this, mostly because after reading the past posts on the X-Men Movieverse list, most of the struggles seem to be between seperate bodies of Movieverse writers arguing about interpretation, or the ever present 'Logan/Rogue' question. A wash of comic fanfic writer's posting negative protrayels of Movieverse wasn't amoungst that.

Perhaps there's an idea that Movieverse should be interchangable with comicverse, on an archival level, which has not happened to a large extent. Or perhaps that disinterest is taken as a personal rejection as a writer. Or is it that even though you're writing about a movie property of a comic book, you feel the characters and concepts should be interchangable?

Anyhow, feel free to elighten me. If you're a Movieverse writer and feel like you've been relegated to a second class citizen by comic book fanfiction, explain why that is. This is not a trial or a place for justifications. I'm honestly curious why the feeling exists, and in what ways you feel it's manifested on a regular basis. Enlighten me.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

From:

musesfool.livejournal.com

ne is that in my opinion, while "This is all horrible, even the stories I haven't read" is unfair, "There may be good/enjoyable authors and stories in this lot, but I'm not looking for them anymore!" isn't always terribly unreasonable.

And that, in a nutshell, is the attitude that Min and I are complaining about, though she's doing a less emotional and more level-headed job of it than I am.

You're familiar with the comics, so you know the differences between Rogue's respective backgrounds and the resulting dynamics with Logan. I don't know whether you're familiar with the arguments among comic fans and particularly comicverse fanficcers about Logan's taking teenaged girls under his wing.

See, this I can understand. As a veteran of newsgroups and to use a BUffy example, I went through the Buffy/Angel, Buffy/Riley, Buffy/Spike discussions and flamewars. I don't need to go through 'em again now that Buffy/Spike and Cordy/Angel are canon.

However, I will say that most movie L/R fans didn't *know* that these were old arguments (though I at least should have realized that they'd be old hat to some, because what else is the internet for except to argue things like this into the ground?), and you know, indifference is fine, because I'm indifferent to a fair amount of fanfic in all of the fandoms I'm involved in. It's the flat-out, "Ew! Gross! You pedophile! Logan would NEVER!" bits that annoy me. 'Cause you know, you hit that 100th birthday and everybody is a kid to you.

But that's neither here nor there.

I hope that these discussions at least clarify *my* complaints/views of the fandom (both movie- and comic) without offending anyone else.

From:

persephone-kore.livejournal.com

Er... not to be difficult, but just for clarification, are you complaining about the one I said was unreasonable or the one I said wasn't as well? I think it's mostly the former, but then, I can understand being annoyed at not being given a chance out of apathy. Less annoyed than at being told, sight unseen, that one is horrible, but still.

However, I will say that most movie L/R fans didn't *know* that these were old arguments (though I at least should have realized that they'd be old hat to some, because what else is the internet for except to argue things like this into the ground?), and you know, indifference is fine, because I'm indifferent to a fair amount of fanfic in all of the fandoms I'm involved in.

I know most wouldn't have known. That's actually one of the major considerations in my whole hypothetical explanation, actually -- "They don't know; they haven't seen all these arguments -- but it's a very similar fictional situation in some respects and I bet they'll do it all over again!" The arguments I've seen look to be of similar construction and a similar set of perspectives, really. I'm not saying it's unreasonable (it may have been inevitable, I don't know) for it all to come up again, just that some people might have seen it coming and promptly run screaming the other way.

Not, mind you, that I think others of the same people who've been through the old arguments are necessarily unwilling to jump in and have them all again. ;)

It's the flat-out, "Ew! Gross! You pedophile! Logan would NEVER!" bits that annoy me. 'Cause you know, you hit that 100th birthday and everybody is a kid to you.

*chuckles* Well, I personally prefer that any romantic or sexual attraction be kept either one-sided (Rogue having a crush isn't implausible or disturbing to me) or restrained on Logan's part until Marie grows up a bit more. Until she's legally and emotionally and functionally an adult by the standards of her surrounding culture, if you will, and personally ready even if still less experienced. But I certainly agree that Logan getting involved with younger women than himself is very nearly his only option -- there are a few women in comicverse who are significantly closer to his age and I think a few older (at least one, but she may be dead and at any rate was... er... not a good candidate); in movieverse the closest you're likely to get is Mystique, and that's only if you assume she's older than Jean, which may very well not be the case in movieverse. I couldn't judge Mystique's age too well, but I might guess her younger there.

I'd say a certain level of personal and social maturity is needed on the woman's part, however, especially considering Logan can't be the easiest person to share a life with. That doesn't preclude her having known him and perhaps been taken care of by him when she was a kid or a teenager, at least not as I see it.

I will note, in hopes of giving a bit more perspective on my viewpoint here, that I have a 5000-year-old character in a sort-of-nascent relationship with an 18-year-old in one of my stories. Now, it's a rather odd situation -- it's Alicia's Shadowlands, so boundaries between times and timelines are breaking down -- and the parties in question actually grew up together, it's just that she got yanked out of her timeline when the world broke. The experience gap is inordinate. She's just barely an adult by modern standards, but that's actually an incidental result of the point in the timeline from which she was removed for plot reasons. By her own, she's been one for a few years -- was married, did the work of an adult woman, etc.

I think I am babbling. I shall stop now.

From:

musesfool.livejournal.com

Whoops, sorry.

It's definitely the, "You all suck, even though I don't read your stuff" thing, not the "I don't care either way" thing that bothers me most.

Not, mind you, that I think others of the same people who've been through the old arguments are necessarily unwilling to jump in and have them all again.

*g* Hey, I'm willing to jump all over Xander's Lie in Buffydom, and I was there for the original argument. And I can't even tell you how many iterations of the Mahoney Shoot I went through in Homicide before finally jumping ship.

Well, I personally prefer that any romantic or sexual attraction be kept either one-sided (Rogue having a crush isn't implausible or disturbing to me) or restrained on Logan's part until Marie grows up a bit more. Until she's legally and emotionally and functionally an adult by the standards of her surrounding culture, if you will, and personally ready even if still less experienced. But I certainly agree that Logan getting involved with younger women than himself is very nearly his only option

*nods*

Most movieverse writers, myself included, age her up or *deal* with the idea of a young girl crushing on an older man (and the response of those around them) who may or may not, depending, be interested.

That's one reason why I get annoyed sometimes. Yes, there are stories where people leave Rogue a teenager, but most of the time, she's aged up, and yet there's still a vocal contingent of "Logan would *never...*" And well, maybe in the comics, he never did, even after Kitty or Jubilee was old enough (is Jubilee old enough?), but that doesn't mean that if you're a decent writer with a good handle on his character that you couldn't create a situation where he *would*. With all its attendant brooding and growling and giving up the one he loves in the name of honor/nobility etc. *G* All of which *are* things comics Logan would do, and very possibly movie Logan as well.

and the parties in question actually grew up together, it's just that she got yanked out of her timeline when the world broke. The experience gap is inordinate. She's just barely an adult by modern standards, but that's actually an incidental result of the point in the timeline from which she was removed for plot reasons. By her own, she's been one for a few years -- was married, did the work of an adult woman, etc.

Well, sure.

I've read some good Narnia fic lately about how the kids dealt with being kids again after being adult kings and queens, and going through adolescence again etc.

I'm just against blanket condemnations, especially of things I like.

From:

persephone-kore.livejournal.com

Thanks. I thought that's what you meant, but I was slightly worried....

I believe the current estimate for Jubilee's canonical age is "Heaven only knows because we sure don't." ;) I enjoyed more of GenX fanfic than I did the comics (this is "more of what I read," not "more of what was out there"), but I understand there seems to have been some uncertainty there. Perhaps it's been pinned down since. I liked her as Wolvie's sidekick. I liked her in Song's End, darn it! *end pointless muttering for now*

I think some people can't see the guardian/mentor/parent-figure relationship changing far enough either in Logan's eyes to permit attraction or in the girl's eyes (whichever one she is) to make it possible to act on attraction without taking advantage. I imagine others are disturbed by the idea of perceiving the potential for even an eventual romantic relationship at the points we've actually seen so far. I think I've seen still others say that the idea of Logan getting involved with anyone is disgusting because he's so much older, which I always thought was a bit silly.

I think I might prefer the friendship-stories with Logan in most cases, but that's strictly a matter of taste.

The Narnia fic does sound very good. I might have to look for that one of these days.

From:

musesfool.livejournal.com

Thanks. I thought that's what you meant, but I was slightly worried....

I overquoted. My fault. *g*

I believe the current estimate for Jubilee's canonical age is "Heaven only knows because we sure don't." ;)

Ah, one of those Jossian "I suck at math" kind of things huh? Just go with it, and don't ask. *g*

I think some people can't see the guardian/mentor/parent-figure relationship changing far enough either in Logan's eyes to permit attraction or in the girl's eyes (whichever one she is) to make it possible to act on attraction without taking advantage.

And I completely understand that. That's a valid qualm to have. And good writers will address it in a serious story (in a fluffy PWP, not so much, but those are labeled and easy to avoid).

I imagine others are disturbed by the idea of perceiving the potential for even an eventual romantic relationship at the points we've actually seen so far.

Again, I get that. I know many people have trouble with mentor/student sexual interaction. I personally like to explore power imbalances in relationships and how to equalize them (one reason I write so much hooker fic, I think), but I can see why people can't manage to wrap their minds around the teacher/student thing even after the younger character is aged up and the power imbalance is in the past.

I mean, Katta and I just had a discussion about my odd reactions to HP fic, in that I can't read about the kids being sexually active right now even if they're aged up in the story, because I'm picturing the 12yo actors and it squicks me mightily.

I've seen still others say that the idea of Logan getting involved with anyone is disgusting because he's so much older, which I alwaysthought was a bit silly.

Well, I made my feelings about that known. *snerk*.

Yes, Logan should trawl the graveyards for a date. I think Drusilla is older than he is, for those folks looking for an age-appropriate gf for him. *g*

The Narnia fic does sound very good. I might have to look for that one of these days.

Check out silverlake (http://www.imjustsayin.net/silverlake/).

From:

persephone-kore.livejournal.com

Thanks for the Narnia recommendation. Not sure when I'll get there, but interested. :)

As for power imbalances... Mitai and I spawned an epic (still in very slow progress) because we wanted to get two characters to have conversations -- not a romance, even, just conversations! -- without anyone getting killed. Which required us first to make the more powerful character helpless and then to put him under the other's protection so she'd be obligated not to kill him.... and the results of this are where the plot came from. This is rather a different case, of course, as part of the problem was that they were on opposite sides to begin with, whereas in such imbalances as student/teacher relationships some of the problems that can arise do so on account of the fact that they're supposed to be on the SAME side....

I think that Logan does tend to be attracted to mature women, and the young girls he keeps getting associated with are... well, I won't say safe with him, because he attracts danger like nobody's business, but genuinely under his protection, that he's not going to go taking advantage of them. The obvious alternate interpretation is, I think, what a lot of people get upset about, but I don't take it. That doesn't mean I don't figure on the girls eventually growing up. *grins* I think another point of contention might be that to some who see the "protector" relationship as highly parental, it really would be difficult for it to transform to be non-platonic.

Granted, I personally rather like stories exploring assorted relationships neither romantic nor sexual, but they're hardly all I read....